01.29.10
More comments on 9/11 post
More comments on Debunking 9/11 Debunking
We should be wary of getting distracted by the question of Israel, but I find it hard to believe that a complot on 9/11 wouldn’t have been known by Mossad.
But that issue is going to confuse the discussion.
It was also my original feeling, pace Jim Buck’s statement, that there might have been an awareness of a plot forming, with a resulting decision to simply let it happen.
But David Ray Griffin, who also started out with this feeling/hypothesis, came to see that it is refuted by the facts. For example, conspirators coudn’t have manipulated the American air force system, or the world trade center buildings.
James said,
January 28, 2010 at 7:56 pm ·
Historical scapegoats??Anyone who criticizes Israel in this country is denounced as an anti-Semite(even the Jews who criticize Israel). Look…I’m certainly not suggesting that leaders from Israel manipulated US leaders into letting 9/11 happen in order to manipulate the general public. However, when you had a government with Wolfowitz, Rove, Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc. in powerful positions, then I find it difficult to rule out anything.
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James said,
January 28, 2010 at 8:05 pm ·
” I’m disturbed though, James, that you inferr that Israeli interests might have also been a factor.”We can’t deny that Israel has a huge influence on the US’ Middle East Policy.
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Jim Buck said,
-January 29, 2010 at 4:14 am ·
The existence of the state of Israel is as politically useful to the US as the province of Ulster was to the UK, historically. Both “plantations” have served as projection points for imperialist powers. Historically the existential insecurity of the Jewish people has been made use of by ruling elites–who have used the Jews as a buffer between them and the exploited masses. At those historical moments, when only the spilling of blood will placate the desperate mob, it has most often been “Jewish blood”. The philosemitism, current in the US, is a welcome hiatus in a long history of suffering and persecution. Any influence that the “Israeli lobby” has was achieved by perfectly legal activity. If enough Americans hold the view that their politics is distorted by wealthy lobbyists, then it is up to them to seek change. (The recent Supreme Court judgment of political funding may eventually have the paradoxical effect of making such change inevitable.)
As an Englishman, I remain grateful that some Americans maintained a ‘preposterous and illogical relationship’ with my country during the war against Hitler. Churchill, in his war diaries, reports the relief he felt following the Pearl Harbour attack. He went to bed knowing that the economic and military resources of the US would be the decisive factor in Britain’s surivival. Patrick Buchanan and Justin Raimondo lament that historical fact; and they make all kinds of counterfactual claims that are impressive on paper. The same parties lament US support for Israel; and they ask us to abandon it to what they presume would ( in the absence of US support) be its fate. However, the difference between wartime Britain and the present-day Israel is that the latter already has a substantial nuclear arsenal.
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nemo said,
January 29, 2010 at 8:01 am · The question of Israel here revolves around the strange appearance of an Israeli group at the scene of 9/11. I will look for an online reference The questions of Israel in general and orgs like Mossad are in different universes, of action, morality, and what else. The action of intelligence agencies is something hidden from public awareness and would shock us out of our boots for good.
Consider the JFK assassination questions and the invisible government it points to.
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Jim Buck said,
January 29, 2010 at 8:32 am ·There’s no reason to suppose than an ‘invisible government’ would be any more effective than a visible one.
As far as the ‘Israeli group at the scene of 9/11? is concerned, you are referring to this:
http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a091604israelissue
I was in Manhattan in the Autumn of 1984. I was in an ‘Irish bar’ when the news of the Brighton bombing come on TV:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/october/12/newsid_2531000/2531583.stm
A number of people in the bar greeted the news with cheering, they gleefully punched the air. I was saddened by their crude celebration of murder and mayhem, but it never crossed my mind that any of them might be implicated in the bombing. The situation would have beeb the same if I had been watching a group of Irish people celebrating in Kilburn, rather than New York. It would not surprise me at all to learn that some of the Irish people in Manhattan were connected in some way to the Provisional IRA. Those kind of ramifications are common in the small population of Eire. Similarly with the Israelis arrested on 11/9; what would have been exceptional is if none of them had any traceable connection to Mossad. The fact that they were jubilant, at the spectacle of the unfolding tragedy, is undestandable–given the implications, of the latter, for American foreign policy. Similarly, Churchill regarded Pearl Harbour as a “God send”.
Some conspiracy websites make much of the fact that Mossad’s motto is:“By way of deception, thou shalt do war”
Er…surely that’s what any Intelligence service is about? Or do we expect a higher standard of behaviour from Israel, for some reason?
——————–nemo said,
January 29, 2010 at 1:25 pm ·
Thanks for the information. Since we have no hard proof here it is dangerous to get sidetracked. I think the broad context of David Griffin’s works is useful (I am not sure if he discusses the Israeli question).We can fall into the trap of thinking we have certainty. But one thing is clear, the accounts of the mechanics of the WTC tower collapses don’t make much sense, as Griffin makes clear.
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Jim Buck said,
January 29, 2010 at 3:30 pm ·In my view it is people like Griffin who have led us into a labyrinth of sidetracks. The real question is: Did elements of the US government know in advance that the attacks would take place? That simple question is the needle lost among all the straw spread by Griffin et al.
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James said,
January 29, 2010 at 4:26 pm ·
As John points out, the issue is not really Israel, but the problematic clandestine agencies and the extreme drift to the right in both countries. The United States has always had a poor understanding of that region of the world and its attempts at nation building have been disasterous. There comes a point when the unconditional support of Israel becomes problematic and it is simply time to pack up our bags and leave (not that we can’t play an impartial non-interventionist role in some cases).